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This just isnt (IMHO) working
#1

Is it just me, or is there a real sense of patting each other on the back here?

Terrible, awful pictures are posted and praised, those few with noted problems are re-coloured as "artistic", and applauded.
Am I the only one who sees nothing inspiring here but the odd hero, (you all know the people I mean)? Maybe it's me. Maybe I'm in a rut. It happens........
I cant help wondering though if what I see is a reflection; See; in the UK community, we say "oh that's ok....We wont judge.... Oh, that's ok, your IQ of 75 is enough to be a brain surgeon" .....etc etc etc. Likewise, do we shrink from posting genuine comments, (I have deja vu here), in the name of "popular community?"

Come on folks. I know some of you already dislike me intensely, you've made that clear. The thing is though, dont you agree it's an "improve or die" hobby/profession we have here? If so, why are we going backward?
Is Shuttertalk just "art for arts sake", or is it a photographic forum?

Honestly, look at the pictures from the last 2 weeks. Do you see more than 4 people really making an effort? I think not.
I posted a distorted image worthy of, "What is that JUNK!!!" ...... And it never happened, no one took me on.

I dont want a war. I dont want to offend, but I really dont like the idea of death by mediocrity.

Cave canem
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#2

i agree with you rufus, but some poeple have really improved their photographic skills.
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#3

Yes indeed, some have. Some havent, some dont seem to want to, maybe some cant, some barely need to; (I'm thinking Kombisaurus).

Cave canem
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#4

Hey Roo, deja vu indeed. I can see where you're coming from, but I must admit that I don't quite see it that way.

Firstly I should say that there are different forums (as in sections) for different purposes - there's a critique section for people who want honest feedback, and snapshots for those that just want to show people a cute or funny pic without others tearing them to bits.

Secondly, I think we have a very close knit group here, and most enjoy Shuttertalk because it is a friendly and safe place, where people of all skill levels and proficiency are accepted. There are other sites and forums out there that are willing to only put the best on a pedestal while others lie in the gutter. I think others would agree, that it is the sense of community that makes Shuttertalk unique - where everyone gets a fair go, and we recognise that not everyone's Ansell Adams... yet. big_smile

Thirdly, I think people take photos for different reasons too. Some love abstract work, some document their wildlife adventures, some capture memories. Some are willing to constantly learn and improve themselves, some are content where they are, others may be in a photographic rut, and some just hang out for the conversation and chit chat. Whatever the situation, who are we to judge? With myself for instance, my priorities at the moment are family, church, work, then shuttertalk/photography and I must say that things are very hectic at the moment. It shows - I haven't posted a decent pic in months. big_smile However I love the friendships here and make it a point to check in everyday, even though I have nothing photographic to share.

Fourthly, some people welcome criticism, good or bad, with open arms, others may be a bit more fragile. The trick is to find the right balance, and recognise when and whom to give it to. I notice that a few people specifically ask for criticism to improve - in that case I give my honest opinion. I know for yourself, you fall in the former category, but sometimes it is hard to tell with others. I wouldn't want to destroy people's self confidence though, and would rather err on the side of grace - only because I truly treasure all the friendships built up over the years we've been around.

Fifthly, people have different preferences and appreciate art in different ways. Some have a very artistic bent and some people (like me) just like photos because they "look nice". Hey, maybe we all need classes in art appreciation... I don't know. But just be aware that one man's junk could be another man's treasure.


Now on the other side of the coin, I agree that mutual back patting and lying through our teeth when something is clearly terrible might be detrimental in the long run. I'm all for honest appreciation (or lack of) of the work of others, but I guess sensitivity is the key here, for all the reasons above.


With the pic that you posted (I'm assuming it's the wavy warped bulldozer thing) - I think that's a really bad example - only because your ways tend to be very "mysterious". It's not uncommon for you to disappear for weeks at a time, then appear back with some amazing works of art... and sometimes you post photos of dogs going "arf arf arf" big_smile or flying guitars that look like space ships. When you posted that pic, I didn't know whether to take you seriously, or whether you were just giving us a lesson in latin.


Finally, I think it's a bit unfair to tar all the pictures posted in the last 2 weeks as "nothing inspiring". Just browse through the latest uploads and you'll see many gems, many valiant efforts and genuine attempts at improvement. I see some awesome HDR images, beautiful portraits and snapshots, spectacular birdlife shots, and not to mention the touching stories that go along with the pics.


I hope we can all come to an understanding on this - feel free to express your thoughts.

Jules
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#5

i can see what you mean here rufus and I personally feel as though I haven't been improving as well over the last 2 months than the 6 months before that. I know I'm in a rut at the moment (and my photos are showing it)

And I must admit I am also guilty of holding my tongue when I see something I just don't like. A part of me feels as though it might be subjective (artistic) and another part of me feels that I need to be able to say something positive and make suggestions for improvement and I don't always have those.
I don't 'get' why some people like the processed look in their photos, but that doesn't mean its bad. The thing is, i don't know what is bad in that area, because I don't know why some people like what they like and dislike what they don't like. KWIM?

Some of the photos I see (and some I post too) while technically they are good, but they just don't jump out and grab me. Its that intangible thing that is hard to critique and (for me anyway) hard to capture.

Another thing that I myself am very guilty of is being in a subject rut too. Ugh. Big time.

i guess it comes with the territory, being the 'friendliest forum' and all. (and I do love that about this place)

i'm glad you brought this up rufus, its made me think more about things, and why I'm in such a rut at the moment. I don't have any answers though.
(BTW, I like you Wink )

Canon 350D with Speedlight 580EX flash
EFS 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 II, EF 90-300mm f/4.5-5.6 USM, EF 50mm f/1.8

http://www.inspired-images.com.au
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#6

Hi Rufus

What do you look for in a photograph?

Cheers,
Pat
Canon 400D plus assorted lenses
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#7

..........................."I think it's a bit unfair to tar all the pictures posted in the last 2 weeks as "nothing inspiring"

Umm.... I'm really not sure that I said that exactly................................


Other points still being mulled over..................

Cave canem
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#8

Rufus Wrote:Is it just me, or is there a real sense of patting each other on the back here?

Terrible, awful pictures are posted and praised, those few with noted problems are re-coloured as "artistic", and applauded.
Am I the only one who sees nothing inspiring here but the odd hero, (you all know the people I mean)? Maybe it's me. Maybe I'm in a rut. It happens........
I cant help wondering though if what I see is a reflection; See; in the UK community, we say "oh that's ok....We wont judge.... Oh, that's ok, your IQ of 75 is enough to be a brain surgeon" .....etc etc etc. Likewise, do we shrink from posting genuine comments, (I have deja vu here), in the name of "popular community?"

Come on folks. I know some of you already dislike me intensely, you've made that clear. The thing is though, dont you agree it's an "improve or die" hobby/profession we have here? If so, why are we going backward?
Is Shuttertalk just "art for arts sake", or is it a photographic forum?

Honestly, look at the pictures from the last 2 weeks. Do you see more than 4 people really making an effort? I think not.
I posted a distorted image worthy of, "What is that JUNK!!!" ...... And it never happened, no one took me on.

I dont want a war. I dont want to offend, but I really dont like the idea of death by mediocrity.
I don't dislike you intensely! I don't dislike you at all. Heck, I even dreamt about you last night. A goose chased, caught and attacked you but let you go when you started snapping and snarling at it -- then your owner came, picked you up and carried you home and tucked you up in you little basket. All true, that really is what I dreamt. Big Grin

I think it was probably your junk picture of a warped house that was in my mind when I dozed off. I'd been thinking "Aha, the JRT is chewing on something" ... and that brought back some very fond memories of other times in other places. Big Grin

My own POV, for what it's worth, is that different message boards have different styles, customs, posters and each board also has peaks and troughs. Each has good points, each has bad points and there's no such thing as one ideal board -- which is why I use several boards. Each board or mailing list I use offers something useful and helpful otherwise I'd dump it altogether. If one board is going through a slump, chances are I'll be interested in or learning something from another board or mailing list.

I've been watching what Guerito and Irma are doing with HDRI and am very interested in their results. I was also interested in what Christian said about using HDR in CS2 -- so I've been doing various experiments myself and also discussing the results with Stephen (aka 'S') He and I are actually quite excited by the results we're starting to obtain .... so many, many thanks to Irma, Guerito and byrt (Christian) for the inspiration, help, advice and fun.

I'd suggest watching and using a few other boards in addition to the this one. Keep an eye on what's happening in here, as well as other boards. We can't all visit every board and gallery on the .net so it's nice if everyone spreads themselves about a bit then drops in from time to time to share a few pictures, ideas and techniques. This board is definitely a place where we can be sure of a friendly welcome so that's a strong point.

In addition to 'Stuttersquawk' I use Photosig, WPF, BF, the RIT PF list, DPnow amongst other boards, blogs and galleries -- each has something to offer so I tend to be a selective about what I read, otherwise I'd be online 24/7.

Pol
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#9

Schellamo.................. "i'm glad you brought this up rufus, its made me think more about things, and why I'm in such a rut at the moment"....................

Aha! See, I always try, ("try" being the operative word), to find an inspiring gallery or pic, and keep asking myself, "why is this good, why is it popular, why do I like it, why cant I match it???

That's where I feel we are lacking. Yes, as ST says, there have been some gems here. I wouldnt dream of denying that, but overall I dont think we're pushed enough.
Yes, you may quite fairly say "Ok Rufus, go and be "pushed" somewhere else", or, "why push at all?"........
The answer to me, seems to be........Because we're here!

Cave canem
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#10

Pat Wrote:Hi Rufus

What do you look for in a photograph?
Oh crumbs, that hard.

You know Pat, I wonder if I even know??? Mind you, here's my basic rule for myself:

A good image is usually: (not always)

1/ Reflecting something real
2/ Well lit
3/ In focus
4/ Suitably composed

That's it really. Ok, there are other things I might like, but they are purely subjective issues.

Of course, there are also humourous and snap-shot pics. They dont need any rules. They are what they are, but they arent photography in the hobby nor the pro sense. They're just pictures. Does that make sense?
My series call "football" was one such beastie. Designed only to laugh at..............

Cave canem
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#11

Pol said, (amongst many other interesting things): "My own POV, for what it's worth, is that different message boards have different styles, customs, posters and each board also has peaks and troughs".

Very true. How does one such forum come out of a trough?

Cave canem
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#12

Poll also said, (amongst a whole basket of fascination); " Heck, I even dreamt about you last night. A goose chased, caught and attacked you but let you go when you started snapping and snarling at it -- then your owner came, picked you up and carried you home and tucked you up in you little basket. All true, that really is what I dreamt."


Was my owner male or female???

Cave canem
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#13

.........................sometimes you post photos of dogs going "arf arf arf" or flying guitars that look like space ships

Good lord! Not for ages!!! You've been trawling dirt in the archive!! Tongue

Cave canem
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#14

I did type a long reply to this.........but I have decided not to post it as I don't want to offend anyone!
You all know what I mean without me saying what I mean don't you??....TongueBig Grin
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#15

Rufus Wrote:Poll also said, (amongst a whole basket of fascination); " Heck, I even dreamt about you last night. A goose chased, caught and attacked you but let you go when you started snapping and snarling at it -- then your owner came, picked you up and carried you home and tucked you up in you little basket. All true, that really is what I dreamt."


Was my owner male or female???
You're owner was a right little toughie, can't remeber if it was a girl or boy. All i remeber was being shoved aside as I went to pick you up -- and this tough little kid told me to shove off, calining "that's MY dog". you were brown and white with bloodied scratches and wounds on you back - but well enough to trot off home with the kid. Big Grin

Pol
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#16

Rufus Wrote:Pol said, (amongst many other interesting things): "My own POV, for what it's worth, is that different message boards have different styles, customs, posters and each board also has peaks and troughs".

Very true. How does one such forum come out of a trough?
I have no particular formula to offer. It either happens or it doesn't. Depends on all sorts of factors, seasons, weather etc. I go through quite long phases of 'forum fatigue' myself and at the moment I just can't find the wherewithal to do any critiques or meaningful reviews of anything. Maybe I'll feel differently when it warms up a bit more and we can get out and about a little more.

There's another board I've used for ages, NT will know where I mean as he also uses the board. Every so often I get so irritated by the mediocrity, silly chit-chat and meaningless drivel that sometimes appears. I've annoyed the hell out of some of them at times and sometimes get 'dissrepped' via their stupid 'rep points' system. However, I still drop in there most days and have a quick look at what's happening as there's sometimes something very useful and unexpected to be found.

I've just come from there now actually. A few nondescript snapshots and very little discussion as usual BUT today a new poster appeared asking about camcorders and, as a result, David's actually ordered on just a few minutes ago - one that was recommended by their community producer (who is into film and home movie making).

It'll be replacing our ancient VCR camcorder and therefore adding a new dimension to our outings and general photo safaris. if I'd dumped the forum because is low-tech we probably wouldn't have had the extra push into going ahead and getting an more up-to-date camcorder.

As my granny used to say ........ "you have to eat yer bread and butter as well as the nice cakes" -- silly old bat was always a bit of a spoilsport. Big Grin


Pol
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#17

Hmmm. As the only one that responded to your distorted photo, I am maybe partially to blame for this thread - but fact of the matter, I did rather like the distortions for the reasons that I gave - and didn't/couldn't comment on the rest of the photo. Enough said.

Personally I am not very comfortable taking shots at other people's photos although I will sometimes recommend areas where I think a photo can be improved. I also don't comment on a lot of photos - not necessarily because I am indifferent to them - but because the subject/technique falls outside of my areas of expertise (i.e. flowers, children). There are hundreds of others that do these subjects a thousand times bettter than I do and their feedback is worth something - mine isn't.

I try to comment on artsy or heavily stylized photos - because I think I understand that genre. I also regularly comment (for good or bad) on PhotoShop techniques. But no, I don't generally call a photo "junk". It just doesn't seem required. If I wanted to abuse others or be abused, I would post at PhotoSig or dpreview.

But I do understand what you mean. I post very few photos now - occasionally a flurry of them in a short period of time - such as my recent New York City series - mainly because I try not to post things I think are mediocre (others may disagree). Lots of regulars here did not comment on any of the NYC series - so I have to assume they didn't like them and didn't want to offend me. And maybe you are right - maybe the photos could have been greatly improved with more criticism.

I don't want to start a war here - we have been getting along really well lately - but I can't help wondering why you want your photos to be harshly critiqued. Most of what I have learned about photography, I have not learned from criticism - but by looking at a lot of photos, deciding what I liked about them, and analyzing why I liked them. But I will allow that not everyone learns the same way.

I would have abandoned many of the techniques that I use regularly now if I had encountered hard criticism of them. Sometimes styles and techniques evolve over a long period of experimentation - and if people jump on something I have done, I tend to abandon that path - but maybe that's just me.
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#18

Russt Wrote:I did type a long reply to this.........but I have decided not to post it as I don't want to offend anyone!
You all know what I mean without me saying what I mean don't you??....TongueBig Grin
Personally, I havent a clue what you are saying. :|

Cave canem
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#19

What exactly is the point here? Rufus, do you seriously think if you don't like a picture noone else is entitled to like it?

I believe in the saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". I know quite some painted pictures (or other artwork) selling for millions that for me are just crap. Obviously, other people like them. Welcome to the world of art, Rufus! Big Grin

As to the technical quality of the pictures here, I admit there are some that are not fit to be printed in "National Geographic". A lot of mine are in this category. So what? If you want a quality print, don't go to the forums. Talk to me privately and I'll give you a quote.

I'm sick and tired of the whining about the quality of the comments. Are we here to comment on the comments, or on the pictures? Maybe Jules can establish a function that lets the original poster rate the comments, but I don't see the benefit. I want to make my pictures better, not my comments. And anyway, I think the commenting style here in Shuttertalk is really ok.

My point is, I don't get the point.

Gallery/ Flickr Photo Stream

Reality is for wimps who can't face photoshop.
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#20

Ah, Mr T!! Smile Your response is cool.........

Why do I want harsh criticism? Well, because I dont do it enough myself, to myself........
I look at a photo I've taken and if it's quite good, I post it. I dont feel that being ignored is a negative critique, though at times it may ruffle me a tad. No, what I look for is a real, objective critique. Now that critique doesnt need to come from a seasoned pro or super hobbiest, because.....(Stand by for the obvious)..Big Grin....... Customers are nearly always snapshooters!!!! :o
So, the informed writes, for example: "I think a reflector may improve the left hand side a little", and the objective snapshooter says, "ere, isnt is 'ead a bit dark?"

May I PLEASE propose a new forum section called "The cold shower critique", to be used ONLY by those masochistic individuals who really want to iron out all the wrinkles.

What do you think?

Oh, yes, Mr T. I do agree about viewing great pics, being inspired and pressing on, yes. But it seems to me personally, that the two ways together are more powerful.

Cave canem
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#21

guerito Wrote:What exactly is the point here? Rufus, do you seriously think if you don't like a picture noone else is entitled to like it?

I believe in the saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". I know quite some painted pictures (or other artwork) selling for millions that for me are just crap. Obviously, other people like them. Welcome to the world of art, Rufus! Big Grin

As to the technical quality of the pictures here, I admit there are some that are not fit to be printed in "National Geographic". A lot of mine are in this category. So what? If you want a quality print, don't go to the forums. Talk to me privately and I'll give you a quote.

I'm sick and tired of the whining about the quality of the comments. Are we here to comment on the comments, or on the pictures? Maybe Jules can establish a function that lets the original poster rate the comments, but I don't see the benefit. I want to make my pictures better, not my comments. And anyway, I think the commenting style here in Shuttertalk is really ok.

My point is, I don't get the point.
One person has got NASTY and its not me.

Cave canem
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#22

Guerito,
Why so aggressive? I'm not, am I? Dont try it on with me please, I'm way past that, ages ago. You cant ruffle me with your thoughtless shouting, so please dont try.
Furthermore, I have no intention of buying ANYTHING off you, nor anyone else. Why did you want me to?

Cave canem
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#23

Rufus Wrote:May I PLEASE propose a new forum section called "The cold shower critique", to be used ONLY by those masochistic individuals who really want to iron out all the wrinkles.

What do you think?
I'm a bad person to ask. I rarely post even in the current Critiques section - almost always in Showcase. Guess I'm not that interested in criticism. Either I have an incredibly fragile ego - or I am just walking my own path. Probably a bit of both.
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#24

I'm not aggressive, nor did I shout. I even gave you a grin.

Tell me what's the nasty part of my post, if you don't mind.

Gallery/ Flickr Photo Stream

Reality is for wimps who can't face photoshop.
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#25

..................are just crap.

Rufus, do you seriously think if you don't like a picture noone else is entitled to like it?

Welcome to the world of art, Rufus

I'm sick and tired of the whining about the quality of the comments.

If you want a quality print, don't go to the forums. Talk to me privately and I'll give you a quote.


Maybe you wrote this without thinking. Perhaps you just forgot. Maybe your computer has ghosts.

Cave canem
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