[guitarman]

I haven't gone to my Church all summer and I don't know if I'll return. My expereinces with Church have been such that it seems as though elitist of the Church can do anything but us lesser loyal subjects must obey the laws of whatever the Church lays down.
The climax came at a pickup hockey game at the end of last season. I play about 3 or 4 times a week. Once a week with an organized league, once a week with the Church, which is just pickup and once or twice a week with, I'll call them the heathens (Just joking).
During this particular game it got very frustrating putting up with the cheap shots and more dangerous hits from behind in to the boards by a younger skater that happens to be an associate pastors son. Although this league is not supposed to be a hitting league this person doesn't seem to get it nor does anyone seem to care to discipline. It finally broke out in to an all out brawl between me and this person. Neither of us were kicked out of the league just that game, but I'm sure if it were someone else of lesser prominent connections, we would have been.
I have decided that in all likelihood I will not return to this league or the church and will elect to play with the heathens. One such league is made up of mostly excons and thugs. But of these I have had more fair play and guys that are out there for a little competitive edge but mostly just some harmless fun and excercise. Now the organized league I play in is probably the worst for fighting and hitting but when you play there you expect it and there are refs that dole out discipline in as objective a manner as humanly possible.
Other such favoritism that I had let slide by in past years was the fact that when I volunteered my musical services for the church such as praise band for which I have experience I was overlooked. Not turned down, just ignored. A week later a brand new person with no expereince but buddy buddy with the right people was up there doing his thing. At the time I elected not to feel bad and figured that maybe God didn't want me for some reason to be in the Church music.
I can't blame all my backsliding on the church though. I feel some personal falling away. Such things as my language and anger had become inappropriate. I can't remember the last time I prayed. I feel really bad, because I know in my heart that God had delivered me from 20 years of an anxiety probelm that just about crippled me emotionally.
Lately I have been working on getting back to the basics. I have worked on controlling my anger and language. I feel very diturbed that I'm harboring this resentment to the Church.
Can I be a Christian while never attending a Church?

[Rufus]

Hmmm, tricky.

Regarding the Hockey, well... Playing Hockey in that way, is a bit like sitting in the roughest pub wondering why you keep getting punched. To me it's a nonsense, (sorry to be blunt). Just dont do it!!!
As far as the churches bad attitude is concerned, well, your talking to the local pastor brawler! I've had some real run-ins with the church, resulting in me leaving, and finding a different one.
I strongly suggest that you do likewise.
Consider this:
Jam 2:2 For if a man comes into your Synagogue in fair clothing and with a gold ring, and a poor man comes in with dirty clothing,
Jam 2:3 And you do honour to the man in fair clothing and say, Come here and take this good place; and you say to the poor man, Take up your position there, or be seated at my feet;
Jam 2:4 Is there not a division in your minds? have you not become judges with evil thoughts?
Now, I'm not suggesting that you are poor.. But maybe you're too hot to handle. I suspect you are! :o
Find a church which is an oasis of calm. Stay as long as you need. Stay permanently. Whatever.
No, you CANT be a solo Christian, nor should you be.
Take heart! You can find a new place.

[guitarman]

Thanks for the advice and the scripture. I once had a church where I felt I belonged but unfortunately that Church had its own problems that eventually lead to its demise. I know that Pastors and Christians are only human but when I see the leaders and the supposed elite of the church acting in worse ways than non-beleivers it makes me wonder. One night one of our goalies didn't show up and so we asked a goalie from the previous ice time to sit in. He went away shaking his head, saying you guys are a Church? Maybe its time to search out another church but I just don't really know how. I came to this present Church after the last Church fell apart because my mother attended. She has since past on and I do have a few friends here at this Church, but I just can't make myself go anymore.
I guess I'm going to have to get off my butt and go out and seek.

[Rufus]

Now this may sound silly, but go with no expectations. Sit and listen, see if the words fit the feelings there....... Say nowt, do nowt, hear all.
Then go home and consider the way it felt.

Ask for prayer here. If you cant pray yourself, why not let others see if they can assist in intercessions?

Hmmm........ :/

[slejhamer]

Guitarman, wow, that's some story!

I would like to think that your personal "backsliding" is a manifestation of what has been a growing dissatisfaction with your present congregation, rather than with "Church" as a whole. This feeling may have been growing for quite some time, and perhaps you were not aware of it. If you "can't make yourself go anymore" then it's time to go elsewhere.

I found this interesting article on an Apologetics site, which seems to address your question:

You can be a 'good Christian' without ever "going to church"

This is quite an odd saying but it is a very common one. I think the saying misunderstands what true Christianity is! It seems to reflect a view which believes that a Christian is merely a very kind person who goes around doing kind and philanthropic deeds for others. Of course, that is fine and is to be encouraged but that idea never gets down to the 'nuts & bolts' of what Christianity is all about!

And yet if we look at the saying and take it literally, it is true. Why? Because actually a Christian never "goes" to church - he or she is either in the Church......or, not! Biblically speaking, 'church' is not a building, but the people themselves comprise 'Church' (with a capital 'C'). So we are not made "church" by regularly attending any hall of worship, nor should such a hall of worship ever (strictly speaking) be called "church". According to the New Testament (which must be deemed the final authority), those people who respond in faith to the message of the Gospel are - in themselves - THE CHURCH.

And yet it remains true that a Christian will want to meet with, and worship with, other believers in the Christ and the writer of the Book of Hebrews admonishes us all not to forsake the practise of assembling together in order to praise God!

So while it might be (technically) true that one can be a 'good Christian' without going to a place of worship, it remains the case that this popular comment is based on a flawed understanding of what Christianity is, and a Christian will want to meet with others in order to praise God where this is possible (and sometimes it isn't).

But, in the final analysis, a Christian should never be defined simply as 'a person who goes to church' - that is a very unsatisfactory concept!

No, a Christian is a person who accepts that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the Son of God and wants to become a disciple of the very same Jesus. In becoming such a disciple, the man or woman fully accepts that their "job description" will involve not only prayer and Bible study (in order to learn more about God), but also - to a greater or lesser degree - to be an evangelist for Christ! This is what being a Christian is all about! We allow our lights to shine for Christ - we don't hide them away in case they are spotted!

[guitarman]

Guitarman, wow, that's some story!

I would like to think that your personal "backsliding" is a manifestation of what has been a growing dissatisfaction with your present congregation, rather than with "Church" as a whole. This feeling may have been growing for quite some time, and perhaps you were not aware of it. If you "can't make yourself go anymore" then it's time to go elsewhere.

I found this interesting article on an Apologetics site, which seems to address your question:

You can be a 'good Christian' without ever "going to church"

This is quite an odd saying but it is a very common one. I think the saying misunderstands what true Christianity is! It seems to reflect a view which believes that a Christian is merely a very kind person who goes around doing kind and philanthropic deeds for others. Of course, that is fine and is to be encouraged but that idea never gets down to the 'nuts & bolts' of what Christianity is all about!

And yet if we look at the saying and take it literally, it is true. Why? Because actually a Christian never "goes" to church - he or she is either in the Church......or, not! Biblically speaking, 'church' is not a building, but the people themselves comprise 'Church' (with a capital 'C'). So we are not made "church" by regularly attending any hall of worship, nor should such a hall of worship ever (strictly speaking) be called "church". According to the New Testament (which must be deemed the final authority), those people who respond in faith to the message of the Gospel are - in themselves - THE CHURCH.

And yet it remains true that a Christian will want to meet with, and worship with, other believers in the Christ and the writer of the Book of Hebrews admonishes us all not to forsake the practise of assembling together in order to praise God!

So while it might be (technically) true that one can be a 'good Christian' without going to a place of worship, it remains the case that this popular comment is based on a flawed understanding of what Christianity is, and a Christian will want to meet with others in order to praise God where this is possible (and sometimes it isn't).

But, in the final analysis, a Christian should never be defined simply as 'a person who goes to church' - that is a very unsatisfactory concept!

No, a Christian is a person who accepts that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the Son of God and wants to become a disciple of the very same Jesus. In becoming such a disciple, the man or woman fully accepts that their "job description" will involve not only prayer and Bible study (in order to learn more about God), but also - to a greater or lesser degree - to be an evangelist for Christ! This is what being a Christian is all about! We allow our lights to shine for Christ - we don't hide them away in case they are spotted!

Thanks to both of you for the words of encouragment. I don't blame the Church for my backsliding, it really is a small part of what cooled the burning desire of my Christian faith. I guess I shouldn't have made it sound like it was the central cause of my lack of faith. Although it does leave me questioning. I really don't know if just going to another Church will ignite the flame again. Its kind of scary because all my life no matter what I've always respected and loved the father. There have been times when I've strayed very far but somehow He always blessed me. I have a testimony that would curl your toes.

[Rufus]

I have a testimony that would curl your toes.

It might help you, and us, to know more of this. However, I am acutely aware of the difficult and sensitive nature of testimonies.....................

[Zig]

Guitarman, that is inspiring testimony: if indeed some of those "great and good" had as much self-searching and awareness as you have, their leadership would be augmented.
If I know anything about Jesus, it's that He's loved you since His dad first thought of you, since way before(Psalm 139) you were fashioned in your mum's womb...that is, well before any learnt coping mechanisms you developed to either keep "good" people close or "bad" ones away.
You mention basics. The basic thing is that, regardless of all sorts of feelings that habitually suggest otherwise, Jesus has always loved you and indeed always will, as you've already I gather allowed Him into your life. St Paul tells us we are already seated in the heavenlies as we have died already: your future is assured, and there is nothing you need to do to earn it, be worth it, be good enough for it. Jesus said, "I will never leave or forsake you"...also, God is described in Job as "mindful" of us; ie; His mind is full of us: 24/7, we(you) are all He thinks about. Jesus affirms this later when He says that not one sparrow falls without His dad knowing about it...and that every hair of your head is numbered...
...So: God's word on the block is: anyone who messes with My boy Guitarman(whom I love like his brother Jesus) had better watch out, as they will be accountable.
This boils down thus: churches and their leaders do sometimes choose not to be blessed by the very valued and unique brothers and sisters of Jesus. More fool them.
Being challenged about church attendance within yourself definitely does not mean you cease to be Christian: for all the reasons above. St Paul does tell us about the value of shared worship, and about getting picked off(only in the sense of being ineffective or blinded) if we don't do joined-y up stuff with other members of Jesus' body: but, hey, we already know His promise...and this one too in Jeremiah: "I have a plan for you, to prosper and not to harm you".
But...well, no buts really:
When we are young, we learn various emotional responses to protect ourselves or to meet our needs; anger, fear, anxiety..all are pretty un-named and unseparate for a baby; when we are older we are told to divide them up to make sense of them.
But chances are(I'm guessing) that whenever you're angry, there's fear and anxiety too.
Thing is, these traits are so well-learned by us as they become habitual...and they are deeply powerful survival Fight or Flee triggers. We took up these habits because at one time in our lives they were not just appropriate, but we deemed them vital to our survival!
If a kiddy senses abandonment, then, because he/she sees himself as dependent(as is right) on its parents, it gets fearful and angry, as it senses the need to survive..."if my mum leaves me alone, I'll die", basically.
Now, I'm pretty darned sure that you, like every other Christian who automatically feels not good enough when angry, at one time had every good reason to use anger to get your needs met.
What sometimes happens, is that these learnt patterns aren't put down as we get older..the terror, the habit is too powerful...not only that, but we'll maybe have conscious memory of those patterns being reinforced as maybe our parents die, or a woamn(or man) deserts us. So, by the time we get into our 30s, we not only have inappropriate responses but also hurt and pain: so, what do we do? Blame ourselves, then do our best to keep it under wraps: the saddest part is that when we are Christians we THEN tell ourselves we won't be loved anymore if we dare get angry: Why? Because we ascribe our earthly parents' shortcomings to our heavenly Father, because that's all we know...then we try and get our esteem needs met by seeking approval from "church representations" of our childhood authorities.
We then have this: angry, feeling unloved, unable to feel part of the body that we have a God-given right to be blessed by; afraid that if we dare "act out" we'll be cast out. Result= wilderness, depression, anger.
Well, mate. I tell you what I did. Note, I'm not advising here, just telling you what I've found to be useful.
I wrote a "letter" to myself, or that part of myself that keeps doing broken things. In this letter I thanked "me" for using anger to protect myself all those years ago; but I then said " I forgive you"(ie; me) for carrying child responses thru to adulthood inappropriately. I then told my self the truth(whether I felt it or not....feelings lie, as we've just seen), saying biblical truths as I wrote in the first paragraph of this reply to your post.
It helped. Jesus said, the truth will set you free. He loves especially, honest people who see and say exactly what is: you've done a big healing thing already Guitarman by "confessing" this out: "we overcome", as Paul says, " by the word of our testimony and the blood of the lamb"(Jesus). So, already, by you saying how it is, you have already overcome: the claiming and living in the ground given by God comes by , with another Christian, accepting His forgiveness, choosing to keep saying that we know sinning in our anger is not of God. We may fall down, but He is faithful; He won't leave us(you); He knows our propensity for failure!
Yep, choosing good friends who are Christian and honest..and there's more than one or 2 on this site...a miracle of His provision already.
Some churches sadly are not good feeders of their flock; by a statement of Grace, that is left to the people who can feed, people who know what a battle is..that's people like you buddy.
Some of these leaders: they talk about victory,...but seem not to have yet understood you can't have a victory unless there's been a battle.
Sometime soon, there'll be a big herd of people needing fed, needing healing of their brokenness..and God will use folks like you, Guitarman...
You are already being prayed for bud.

[de_axeman]

It's ironic that sometimes it's the worst sinner, who realises the depths from which God has rescued them from, that displays the greater measure of grace, than the Christian who's been a goody-two-shoes all their life.

Guitarman, It's encouraging to see your faith in God is steadfast despite your circumstances. You just keep on worshipping God and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, and He'll guide you to where you should be.

[shuttertalk]

Thanks for sharing everyone... some really heartfelt stuff here.

I think that church is made up of people and inevitably people are imperfect and hence disagreements, missed expectations, etc.

I too have struggles, but have resigned to the belief that the only person you can really change is yourself...

[guitarman]

I have a testimony that would curl your toes.

It might help you, and us, to know more of this. However, I am acutely aware of the difficult and sensitive nature of testimonies.....................

I always wanted to publicly proclaim my personal testimony and I thought that after my mother died I might be able to do so. But I am just not ready. I never could even think of it as some of what I had to say involved my childhood. I would never have done that to my mother as she was never able to come to terms with everything that happenned with our family.

[guitarman]

Guitarman, that is inspiring testimony: if indeed some of those "great and good" had as much self-searching and awareness as you have, their leadership would be augmented.
If I know anything about Jesus, it's that He's loved you since His dad first thought of you, since way before(Psalm 139) you were fashioned in your mum's womb...that is, well before any learnt coping mechanisms you developed to either keep "good" people close or "bad" ones away.
You mention basics. The basic thing is that, regardless of all sorts of feelings that habitually suggest otherwise, Jesus has always loved you and indeed always will, as you've already I gather allowed Him into your life. St Paul tells us we are already seated in the heavenlies as we have died already: your future is assured, and there is nothing you need to do to earn it, be worth it, be good enough for it. Jesus said, "I will never leave or forsake you"...also, God is described in Job as "mindful" of us; ie; His mind is full of us: 24/7, we(you) are all He thinks about. Jesus affirms this later when He says that not one sparrow falls without His dad knowing about it...and that every hair of your head is numbered...
...So: God's word on the block is: anyone who messes with My boy Guitarman(whom I love like his brother Jesus) had better watch out, as they will be accountable.
This boils down thus: churches and their leaders do sometimes choose not to be blessed by the very valued and unique brothers and sisters of Jesus. More fool them.
Being challenged about church attendance within yourself definitely does not mean you cease to be Christian: for all the reasons above. St Paul does tell us about the value of shared worship, and about getting picked off(only in the sense of being ineffective or blinded) if we don't do joined-y up stuff with other members of Jesus' body: but, hey, we already know His promise...and this one too in Jeremiah: "I have a plan for you, to prosper and not to harm you".
But...well, no buts really:
When we are young, we learn various emotional responses to protect ourselves or to meet our needs; anger, fear, anxiety..all are pretty un-named and unseparate for a baby; when we are older we are told to divide them up to make sense of them.
But chances are(I'm guessing) that whenever you're angry, there's fear and anxiety too.
Thing is, these traits are so well-learned by us as they become habitual...and they are deeply powerful survival Fight or Flee triggers. We took up these habits because at one time in our lives they were not just appropriate, but we deemed them vital to our survival!
If a kiddy senses abandonment, then, because he/she sees himself as dependent(as is right) on its parents, it gets fearful and angry, as it senses the need to survive..."if my mum leaves me alone, I'll die", basically.
Now, I'm pretty darned sure that you, like every other Christian who automatically feels not good enough when angry, at one time had every good reason to use anger to get your needs met.
What sometimes happens, is that these learnt patterns aren't put down as we get older..the terror, the habit is too powerful...not only that, but we'll maybe have conscious memory of those patterns being reinforced as maybe our parents die, or a woamn(or man) deserts us. So, by the time we get into our 30s, we not only have inappropriate responses but also hurt and pain: so, what do we do? Blame ourselves, then do our best to keep it under wraps: the saddest part is that when we are Christians we THEN tell ourselves we won't be loved anymore if we dare get angry: Why? Because we ascribe our earthly parents' shortcomings to our heavenly Father, because that's all we know...then we try and get our esteem needs met by seeking approval from "church representations" of our childhood authorities.
We then have this: angry, feeling unloved, unable to feel part of the body that we have a God-given right to be blessed by; afraid that if we dare "act out" we'll be cast out. Result= wilderness, depression, anger.
Well, mate. I tell you what I did. Note, I'm not advising here, just telling you what I've found to be useful.
I wrote a "letter" to myself, or that part of myself that keeps doing broken things. In this letter I thanked "me" for using anger to protect myself all those years ago; but I then said " I forgive you"(ie; me) for carrying child responses thru to adulthood inappropriately. I then told my self the truth(whether I felt it or not....feelings lie, as we've just seen), saying biblical truths as I wrote in the first paragraph of this reply to your post.
It helped. Jesus said, the truth will set you free. He loves especially, honest people who see and say exactly what is: you've done a big healing thing already Guitarman by "confessing" this out: "we overcome", as Paul says, " by the word of our testimony and the blood of the lamb"(Jesus). So, already, by you saying how it is, you have already overcome: the claiming and living in the ground given by God comes by , with another Christian, accepting His forgiveness, choosing to keep saying that we know sinning in our anger is not of God. We may fall down, but He is faithful; He won't leave us(you); He knows our propensity for failure!
Yep, choosing good friends who are Christian and honest..and there's more than one or 2 on this site...a miracle of His provision already.
Some churches sadly are not good feeders of their flock; by a statement of Grace, that is left to the people who can feed, people who know what a battle is..that's people like you buddy.
Some of these leaders: they talk about victory,...but seem not to have yet understood you can't have a victory unless there's been a battle.
Sometime soon, there'll be a big herd of people needing fed, needing healing of their brokenness..and God will use folks like you, Guitarman...
You are already being prayed for bud.

Alot of what you typed here is "me" right on. There has even been so many times throughout my 17 years of marriage that I have not treated my wife and children very well taking out my anger. I'm not talking about hitting, but alot of times I haven't been very pleasant to be around. Actually more in the last 6 years. When my kids were between the ages of birth till about 10 years old were my happiest. I gave them everything I never had as a child. My son and I started to drift apart when he was 10 (Crabby old DAD) and I started to alienate my daughter when she was 10 or 11. My wife has remained true blue (She is the best) Despite my constant crabiness. Just recently I have made a constant effort to be happier. I know I need to get my spiritual life straight. My children who were Chrurch goers are now turned off Church and its my fault.
These past couple of weeks (Right after my camera stuff was stolen) I came to crossroads where I decided to change. This past weekend I took my wife out for the most fun we have had in years. The perma smile on her face was enough to know that I wanted to always place that smile on her face. (And I love so much to photograph her with that smile)
Thanks for the prayers and thoughts.

[guitarman]

Thanks for sharing everyone... some really heartfelt stuff here.

I think that church is made up of people and inevitably people are imperfect and hence disagreements, missed expectations, etc.

I too have struggles, but have resigned to the belief that the only person you can really change is yourself...

Amen