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Samsung NX - mirrorless interchangeable lens camera with EVF
#1

Here's an attempt by one manufacturer to push the boundaries of innovation - Samsung has announced the new NX series of mirrorless, interchangeable lens "DSLR" cameras - not sure if you can call it a true DSLR since the "R" stands for the Reflex mirror which projects the image up to the optical viewfinder in a traditional DSLR. Anyway, the NX10 features a 14.6 megapixel APS-C sized sensor and a kicker - a VGA electronic viewfinder since it doesn't have a reflex mirror. It also has a 3.0 inch AMOLED screen at the back, which is supposed to be much superior to traditional LCD screens in terms of refresh rate, viewing angles, power consumption and visibility in sunlight.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/1001/10010402samsungnx.asp

It sounds like a very interesting concept to me, and would certainly like to see how well it succeeds in the marketplace. Major advantages to the design are definitely a more compact size due to not having to house mirrors and a optical viewfinder mechanism, and also with an EVF there is flexibility in what is displayed - different information overlays, viewing exactly what is seen by the sensor, etc.

However, the two major downsides to this design I can see is (1) the EVF and (2) the completely new mount system. My experience with EVFs in the past are range from "adequate" to "barely usable" due to refresh rate (you can literally wave your hand in front and see the lag in the viewfinder updating) and also the poor resolution which will never give as good or clear an image as an optical viewfinder. On this front, I think the VGA (300K pixel count) is not going to help much - with my previous camera with an 300K pixel EVF, you could literally see the pixels - it's almost like staring at a mini LCD monitor up close.

Also, the Samsung GX lineup was based on a Pentax design and as a result, (correct me if I'm wrong) users could also use a subset of Pentax lenses and were not restricted to Samsung only branded lenses. This new camera has a new lens system which will definitely limit lens choice (at launch they will only offer a standard zoom, tele zoom and a pancake 30mm).


Interesting times indeed - I certainly applaud Samsung for their innovation. Again, this is blurring the lines between the compact realm and the traditional DSLR - it borrows the sensor and lens system from a DSLR but essentially houses them body with features more akin to a compact digital camera. This formula could definitely work although I have a feeling it might be more of a niche market like the Panasonic GF1 or the Pentax EP-1 / EP-2.

Thoughts?
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#2

I looked at the NX10 and had to end up saying "no thanks". I want a compact camera with good image quality - and the NX10 is simply too big. If I can carry this, I can carry my DSLR. Frankly, even the Olympus Pen and GF1 are pushing the envelope size-wise for me.

I am still impatiently waiting for a camera that is LX3 size with a fast prime and a larger sensor. That would be a real street camera.
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#3

Not for me, had a Fuji with an EVF and didn't get on with it very well.
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#4

Samsung DSLRs are essentially Pentax bodies with a different name on them - I saw one for the first time ever last week. Samsung actually has dabbled in film cameras before, and has made some 35mm P&S cameras until fairly recently, but they're far from being a camera company, like Nikon, or an optics company, like Olympus, or even a photocopier company, like Canon and Minolta. Big Grin

After being vaporware for a year, the NX format still seems like a non-starter to me. It's hard enough finding people to buy Samsung SLRs that are interoperable with the lenses of one of the grand old camera companies. An entirely new format from a company whose Canadian website currently features a TV, computer, mobile phone, and a refrigerator?

Before it even has a chance to be seen by camera buyers, it has to fight its way into camera stores, and that's hard enough for anyone who's not Canon or Nikon to do. The relatively established µ4/3 cameras are having a hard enough time with this struggle. Perhaps Canon and Nikon could leverage their brand to create a viable new format, but they've resisted as many changes to their legacy business as possible so far.

Interestingly, but possibly irrelevantly, I noticed today that a Sigma DP2 is selling for more than a body-only Sigma SD14....

matthewpiers.com • @matthewpiers | robertsonphoto.blogspot.com | @thewsreviews • thewsreviews.com
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#5

I forgot to mention: I love the name for the processor in the new NX camera. Sure, Expeed, Bionz, TruePic, and Digic all sound cool, but none of them match the new:

DRI Me II Pro

matthewpiers.com • @matthewpiers | robertsonphoto.blogspot.com | @thewsreviews • thewsreviews.com
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#6

Haha, Dry me too pro... Big Grin

I think as you say, they definitely have a challenge on their hands.
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#7

Photographyblog have published a review of the NX10 from Samsung.
http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/s...10_review/

They're quite positive about it:

Quote:I've rarely reviewed a first-generation product that is quite as well-designed as the NX10. Everything about it, from the conventional yet stylish DSLR-like design, logical user interface and excellent build quality is testament to the lavish attention that Samsung have obviously invested (not to mention the cost). The NX10 may not be quite as slim as the smallest Micro Four Third models from Olympus and Panasonic, but it does offer a useful handgrip and even more useful built-in viewfinder.
I'm still not sold on the EVF but according to them it's not that bad, and the entire system is more affordable than the Panny and Olympus equivalents.

Thoughts?
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#8

I agree with you on EVFs somewhat - but an EVF actually has a few advantages over an optical viewfinder.

1. *What you see is what you get*. The live view technology of the Panasonics allows the view in the EVF to darken and lighten to reflect the actual exposure of your photo.

2. The EVF shows you 100% of the photo's field of view - unlike most optical viewfinders which are cropped somewhat because of the mirror / prism setup.

3. Swivel / tilt. Try that with an optical view finder.


[edit] Speaking of EVFs...Panasonic has filed a patent for a rangerfinder-style tiltable EVF in a *very* compact camera. Speculation is that this is the GF2 - although I doubt that. More like the GF3, I would think.

http://43rumors.com/panasonic-gf2-patent/

Panasonic has shown over and over again that they are prepared to think outside of the box and switch up the rules of the game - producing amazing hardware that challenges the existing paradigms. The big boys (Nikon and Canon) can't move that fast because they have massive investments in technology and production facilities - and are not quick to begin cutting into their own markets. Camera bodies have always been loss leaders - and the real profit is in lenses. Ramping up a new line of lenses is costly and takes resources away from their core product lines. Panasonic doesn't have that problem - so can move a lot faster.
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#9

My Biggest gripe with the Fuji EVF was it lagged in updating, if you were shooting something moving, it was hard to hit with the time delay, and in bright sunlight, even with the viewfinder screwed into your eyesicket it was still hard to see.
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#10

I hear tech talk, but I still did not hear a compelling reason to want to buy it. What could you do with it that you could not do with G11 if you want small? (Image quality and noise levels are very good with G11 I think). I would not start another "system", because of the cost of lenses. If I want small, Nikon has intro level cameras that are featherweight compared to D300 and a lot smaller. Other brands have also compact and light intro DSLRs. I would get a small 24 - 35 mm (equiv.) compact prime or a small kit lens to go with the body. Now if i was starting, I would consider something like a micro 3/4 from Panasonic or Olympus, but i think it is too early to commit, as the technology is still immature and I want to see what Nikon and Canon will come up with (in due course).

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#11

Pavel Wrote:I hear tech talk, but I still did not hear a compelling reason to want to buy it. What could you do with it that you could not do with G11 if you want small? (Image quality and noise levels are very good with G11 I think). I would not start another "system", because of the cost of lenses.
To be honest verging on bluntness, if you're happy with the IQ of the G11, then there is no compelling reason for you to get any new camera. But the results from the Luminous-Landscape review of the G11, as well as my own experience processing files for a friend, it's not as good as a camera with a larger sensor. ('Good enough' is different from better, and is always a personal decision.)

Pavel Wrote:If I want small, Nikon has intro level cameras that are featherweight compared to D300 and a lot smaller. ... I would get a small 24 - 35 mm (equiv.) compact prime or a small kit lens to go with the body. Now if i was starting, I would consider something like a micro 3/4 from Panasonic or Olympus, but i think it is too early to commit, as the technology is still immature and I want to see what Nikon and Canon will come up with (in due course).
And hopefully some day Nikon will create that - not the smaller, lighter camera system with great image quality - hopefully some day they'll create a wide-normal prime that will autofocus on one of their small entry-level cameras.

matthewpiers.com • @matthewpiers | robertsonphoto.blogspot.com | @thewsreviews • thewsreviews.com
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#12

Apparently the Samsung NX100 will debut at the IFA 2010 show in Berlin next month. See pics of the camera and lens lineup here!
http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/10/is-th...ns-camera/
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#13

I have to say that I've been really surprised by how well the whole mirrorless idea has been doing. While I still haven't seen a Samsung NX camera in the wild (or even another Samsung-branded Pentax body since the one I mentioned back in January), I have seen people carrying the Sony NEX bodies around. And the micro 4/3 bodies are far more common on the street than the full-sized 4/3 ever was.

If I can make a bold prediction, I think Olympus will do one more 'pro' body, probably called the E-5, and then will dedicate itself to Micro Four Thirds. Panasonic hasn't made any official announcement, but they've effectively orphaned their Four Thirds cameras already. With Olympus gone, that will effectively orphan Four Thirds the same way that the Olympus OM system got dropped, and leave them to spend the rest of their days on adapters.

matthewpiers.com • @matthewpiers | robertsonphoto.blogspot.com | @thewsreviews • thewsreviews.com
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#14

The word on the street is with you on this prediction. Matthew. I agree.
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#15

Fascinating. I have yet to work out exactly who is Mr(or Ms) Mirrorless in terms of marketing: is it those stepping up from compacts, DSLR owners who want a second lighter camera or those liking the combined aesthetic of retro/small with the ability to build a modular system(thus adding accesories like VFs and making it larger, dearer and less aesthetic).
Rufus and I were yapsing only yesterday about the following: if we were going a trip and we wanted something small with decent IQ to quickly cover people 'n' setting shots at a catch-all focal length, what we go for? Parameters=best bang for buck at c. £500 GBP. We talked ourselves through Sigma DP2S, Pana GF-1, Sony NEX-3, Olympus EPL-1 and a few others. We finally thought, hold up: for that sort of cash, and considering the compromises on sensor-size, image visibility, AF quality..we talked ourselves in a circle, ending back at DSLRs: Pentax K-X or a 3-yr old Canon APS-C body with a 35mm f2 slapped on it.
It's odd to see the whole mirrorless thing jangle and flap about as it fledges its first wingfeathers: the big names have certainly been successful in marketing a degree of lifestyle, ease and simplicity about m4/3(whether true or not), yet obviously the big pain is that camera users want to actually see an image as they take it. Thus, taking away something pretty central to a true-viewing experience like a mirror, seems to necessitate the bolting on of an extra viewfinder.
And yet I'm seeing the phenomenon through my own eyes here(!)
I have a feeling that Olympus are drawing a big breath as they consider the price difference between their present models.
I'm also rather intrigued about how/why they name their items: Sony includes the "alpha" name for some peculiar reason in their NEX....riding on the kudos from their DSLR maybe? And NX(Samsung)...er, not exactly a far cry from NEX...I wonder why.

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#16

Zig: your analysis is quite spot on. Using the GF-1 as an example, I find the AF speed and image quality totally acceptable - I might be so bold as to say that the image quality is superior to my Nikon D200 in some ways (dynamic range and low light performance). Having said that, my D200 is a few generations back now, and I am sure that Nikon has also taken strides in those areas where my GF-1 currently outperforms.

Small size is a *big* thing, but he GF-1, even when equipped with the diminutive 20mm is still not truly pocketable. It is very carryable, however, even in situations where I would never bother to carry a full size rig.

The Achilles Heel with the GF-1 is its lack of a integral viewfinder. The bolt-on EVF is a compromise no matter how you look at it - and even the rather good EVF on the GH-1 does not really compare to a proper optical viewfinder. If Panasonic (or Olympus) can solve the viewfinder issue - without increasing the bulk of the GF-1 - or destroying its wonderful looks, I would be able to recommend it without hesitation as a viable solution to the photo enthusiast who wants to simplify his life without having to resort to a (shudder) camera phone.

I'll be watching the announcements for the next crop of mirror-less cameras with great interest. As for buying another full size DSLR with a half-frame sensor, I think not. The GF-1 could co-exist quite nicely with a full frame rig - lets say the Nikon D700, but there just isn't enough difference in image quality to justify me considering another APS-C sensor body.
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#17

Zig Wrote:the big names have certainly been successful in marketing a degree of lifestyle, ease and simplicity about m4/3(whether true or not), yet obviously the big pain is that camera users want to actually see an image as they take it. Thus, taking away something pretty central to a true-viewing experience like a mirror, seems to necessitate the bolting on of an extra viewfinder.
This is one of the biggest head-shaking ironies that I have to deal with:

• The people who are stepping up from compacts are looking for SLRs, and depending on their budget and inclinations, it can be anywhere from a base model to a 5DmkII. The common thread is that they all want to know how to turn on Live View "so that they can see their picture", and not having this solution-looking-for-a-problem ability really hurts the little $450 D3000's sales.

• Meanwhile, people who already have some really great SLRs are the ones tempted by the high-low mix of adding a smaller mirrorless camera to their tool box, and not having a decent viewfinder, and/or the size of an accessory viewfinder, is a huge drawback for them.

I can't tell you how much I would give for a magic wand that would make people want the cameras they should have.

matthewpiers.com • @matthewpiers | robertsonphoto.blogspot.com | @thewsreviews • thewsreviews.com
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#18

Toad Wrote:The Achilles Heel with the GF-1 is its lack of a integral viewfinder. The bolt-on EVF is a compromise no matter how you look at it - and even the rather good EVF on the GH-1 does not really compare to a proper optical viewfinder. If Panasonic (or Olympus) can solve the viewfinder issue - without increasing the bulk of the GF-1 - or destroying its wonderful looks, I would be able to recommend it without hesitation as a viable solution to the photo enthusiast who wants to simplify his life without having to resort to a (shudder) camera phone.
I'm starting to suspect that the perfect compact camera would be a GF-1 with the 20/1.7 and a 40mm optical viewfinder. Rangefinder cameras have the same parallax issues and can have moments of semi-random focus, but that just adds to the excitement. Now that I know how little I really use the 14-140, I almost wish I had saved a chunk of money and gone for that setup instead. (But the flip out screen is just so nice to have that I get over it.)

But you and Zig are both touching on the idea that these also still aren't quite small enough; the Sony NEX has smaller bodies but somewhat bigger lenses, without a standard accessory shoe for viewfinders, and the NX system seems to offer nothing better than what either other system has, with the disadvantage of its very small market footprint.

Toad Wrote:I'll be watching the announcements for the next crop of mirror-less cameras with great interest. As for buying another full size DSLR with a half-frame sensor, I think not. The GF-1 could co-exist quite nicely with a full frame rig - lets say the Nikon D700, but there just isn't enough difference in image quality to justify me considering another APS-C sensor body.
In many ways this is why I won't be sad to see 4/3 go away - although it helps that I've already sold all of my gear for that format. Rolleyes Micro four thirds is the proper evolution of the smaller sensor all-digital legacy-free design. The work that Fuji has done to get phase-detect AF into a mirrorless camera is quite promising for the future of designs like the D300s and 7D, where the fast AF defines so much of their character. I suspect that those will be the hardest reduced-frame niche to move to a mirrorless format, but given that the Canon D30 and Nikon D1 are only about a decade old, who knows where we'll be in another five years?

And the GH1 does quite nicely as an alternative to a D700 - or anything else, for that matter. I love owning the AB+ of digital cameras. It's the universal lens recipient, and can use anything from the three other systems that I own.

matthewpiers.com • @matthewpiers | robertsonphoto.blogspot.com | @thewsreviews • thewsreviews.com
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#19

It's interesting seeing myself as a statistic here at present: a few hours ago I came across 2 remarkably good deals on a GF-1+20mm, one at £500, the other at £530...both around a c. 20% saving on the general market price over here. I even added to cart, then did a final check on any remaining objectivity I had as I drew that "yeahbayby" breath....
The things that immediately rose up in my mind to niggle at that little anticipated thrill were these: Shauny, you is definitely going to have to be getting a viewfinder, spare battery and SD card, so we're talking 650 sheets more. I was quite angry at sensibility ruining my Add To Cart moment...particularly as it then chipped in with it observation of, "that Zeiss 35mm f2 is only 150 sheets more: how much time difference would there be when you saw a shot, in getting the GF+ VF to the eye, versus getting the riight prime out of the pocket...and how much more work in pp versus final IQ..?"
Sadly, annoyingly, this ruined my New Kit moment.

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#20

Dpreview have posted their preview of the NX100...
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/samsungnx100/
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