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Would you get a D20 or Rebel XT / 350D?
#1
Both are 8 megapixel cameras, and even though the sensor is smaller on the Rebel XT/350D, Canon claims that the individual photodetectors have the same surface area etc. So, would you get a 20D or the Rebel XT / 350D and spend the extra $1000 (Australian) on a lens, perhaps?
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#2
Neither.

It's a question I've asked myself recently.
Here is my answer to me:

20D PLUS points over 10D
Slight res increase
Lower noise
A bit faster.

20D MINUS points
Cost

350 PLUS points over 10D
Res increase
Lower noise
Price

Irrelevant. Res increase minimal, noise rarely a problem anyway.

What can a 20D or 350 do to improve my pics? Nothing. I have to do that.

I'm waiting. Waiting for 12-16 megapixels, at a reasonable price, with a metal body, and low noise.
It wont be long................................

Oh, I'm also waiting to afford the trade up!!!! :o
Cave canem
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#3
Here is an article comparing the two:
http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/dig...s_20d.html

Items relevant to me, as a potential "upgrader" from the 10D:

Quote:
* The EOS 20D has 9 autofocus zones, the Digital Rebel XT has 7

* The EOS 20D provides full cross-type performance with maximum apertures as small as f5.6, yet it achieves up to 3 times the standard focusing precision when used with EF lenses featuring maximum apertures larger than or equal to f/2.8. The autofocus system of the Digital Rebel XT is inherited from the film Rebel XT body and has normal precision f5.6 sensors.

* The EOS 20D autofocus is specified to operate in 1 stop lower light than the Digital Rebel autofocus (-0.5 EV vs +0/5 EV)

* The EOS 20D has a pentaprism with a 0.9x viewfinder magnification, the Digital Rebel XT has a pentamirror with 0.8x magnification.

* The EOS 20D has a PC terminal for use with an external flash or strobe, the Digital Rebel XT does not.

* The EOS 20D maximum flash sync voltage is 250v (for both the hotshoe and PC terminal), the Digital Rebel XT maximum sync voltage is 6v

* The EOS 20D has a high performance shutter designed for increased reliability (100,000 cycles), the Digital Rebel XT has the normal Canon shutter (about 50,000 cycles).

* The shutter lag time of the EOS 20D is 65ms, the shutter lag time of the Digital Rebel XT is 100ms.

For me, these factors would make the Rebel XT a very modest upgrade from the 10D, giving me ETTL-II and of course the resolution increase.

However, the 20D would give me almost everything that I find lacking in the 10D. (Though 11 AF points would have been better. Also, the .9x viewfinder is equivalent, while the Rebel's .8x viewfinder would be an annoying step backward.)

So, in my opinion, the 20D has some clear advantages. Each individual must decide whether they are relevant to him/her. I would think that most casual shooters would find most the above points meaningless.

But like Rufus, I will probably wait another generation before upgrading. After all, the 10D's built-in shutter self-destruction date is still a good 18 months away ... :o
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#4
Purely for the record, the value of these "improvements" as seen by a grumpy old dog:

0= No value at all, 10= Great value.

* The EOS 20D has 9 autofocus zones, the Digital Rebel XT has 7 0 Rufus points

* The EOS 20D provides full cross-type performance with maximum apertures as small as f5.6, yet it achieves up to 3 times the standard focusing precision when used with EF lenses featuring maximum apertures larger than or equal to f/2.8. The autofocus system of the Digital Rebel XT is inherited from the film Rebel XT body and has normal precision f5.6 sensors. 5 Rufus points


* The EOS 20D autofocus is specified to operate in 1 stop lower light than the Digital Rebel autofocus (-0.5 EV vs +0/5 EV) 2 Rufus points

* The EOS 20D has a pentaprism with a 0.9x viewfinder magnification, the Digital Rebel XT has a pentamirror with 0.8x magnification. 2 Rufus points

* The EOS 20D has a PC terminal for use with an external flash or strobe, the Digital Rebel XT does not. 7 Rufus points

* The EOS 20D maximum flash sync voltage is 250v (for both the hotshoe and PC terminal), the Digital Rebel XT maximum sync voltage is 6v 2 Rufus points

* The EOS 20D has a high performance shutter designed for increased reliability (100,000 cycles), the Digital Rebel XT has the normal Canon shutter (about 50,000 cycles). 5 Rufus points

* The shutter lag time of the EOS 20D is 65ms, the shutter lag time of the Digital Rebel XT is 100ms. 4 Rufus points
Cave canem
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#5
Dog,

Double the expected life of the shutter gets only 5 points? To me that's worth the price difference by itself! Well, at least a couple hundred $s (the cost of replacement.)

Also, you gave good marks to the pc jack (I agree), but low points to the 250v trigger voltage. Think about it this way: if you buy a D-Rebel and want manual control over your external flash, you're stuck buying the expensive 550EX or 580EX. If you can instead use flashes with higher trigger voltage, your options really expand: you can buy three good quality thyristor flashes (vivitar, metz, take your pick) and optical slave triggers for the price of one 550. For some shooters that will be a huge value advantage to the 20D.

And 9 AF points lets you compose for rule-of-thirds without having to lock focus and reposition the camera. I'd give that at least 5 dog points.

Cool
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#6
Human.

No way! :o

75% of humans will trade up long b4 the shutter goes.

Sync voltage? Irrelevant!!!! £1 builds an adaptor in a fag tin. (Or matchbox).

9 af points? Photographers have used no AF at all for years, why do we suddenly need multiple AF points?

Seduced by gadgets, you are.................................... Big Grin
Cave canem
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#7
Big Grin
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#8
Lol I agree regarding AF points - I often just turn all off except the center.

Thanks for the article by the way, slej. Good comparison reference.

Does anyone think 115k pixels for a 1.8 inch LCD is a bit low, or is it just me?

* The EOS 20D has a PC terminal for use with an external flash or strobe, the Digital Rebel XT does not.

Does this mean that if a slave flash is to be used, then you would need to trigger it using an onboard flash or via the hotshoe?

* The EOS 20D maximum flash sync voltage is 250v (for both the hotshoe and PC terminal), the Digital Rebel XT maximum sync voltage is 6v

Hm... don't quite follow....
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#9
shuttertalk Wrote:* The EOS 20D has a PC terminal for use with an external flash or strobe, the Digital Rebel XT does not.

Does this mean that if a slave flash is to be used, then you would need to trigger it using an onboard flash or via the hotshoe?

* The EOS 20D maximum flash sync voltage is 250v (for both the hotshoe and PC terminal), the Digital Rebel XT maximum sync voltage is 6v

Hm... don't quite follow....


The pc terminal lets you connect the camera directly to studio strobes via a pc cord. If you don't have a pc plug in your camera, then you need to buy a hotshoe adapter that has one in it, or use a wireless slave system like Pocket Wizards. The internal flash can be used, but most likely the e-ttl pre-flash will trigger the slaves before the shutter is opened - not a desirable outcome.

Most third-party external flashes and studio strobes have trigger voltages higher than 6V, and will eventually fry the camera's innards unless you add a voltage limiter between the camera and strobes. Apparently the 20D doesn't need the extra gear.

Rebel users can buy a hotshoe adapter that has a voltage limiter and pc plug for less than US$70. The Wein hot-shoe-to-hot-shoe safe sync is one example: http://www.omegasatter.com/v2/products/d...rodID=2886

I'd hesitate to use Rufus' homemade £1 gizmos. Wink
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Everybody got to elevate from the norm!
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#10
I want to get another camera body at the end of the year;

At first I was thinking the 20D (maybe it's replacement will come out and gear collectors will want to sell it cheap to get the new one??);
then about the 350D, the smallness doesn't seem nice to me, except only in the case where I can fit it in my pocket or school bag or something; because at the moment, like today, and most of last week, when I bring my camera to uni, I have to carry this extra bag Smile Compact DSLR SmileSmile Something that can do the same thing as my big 300D Smile haaaaaaaa

or maybe another 300D!

or 30D Tongue
I'll wait and see how it all goes by the end of the year;
but 350D compared to 20D; initially I'd think to choose the 20D, but in the past 5 minutes, the thought of having a small DSLR suddenly became a reason to get 350D - and yesterday, the thought of a small DSLR was yuk.
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#11
Any reason for the prejudice against size (or lack of)? Big Grin

I'd take smaller and lighter any day... Big Grin
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#12
Advantage:
Small to carry

Disadvantage:
Difficult to hold (maybe?)


Ummm, I'm an asian with big hands.
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#13
I found another comparison article!
http://www.whichlens.com/index.php?blog=...&tb=1&pb=1

Quote:I briefly shot at a small event yesterday and am now fairly convinced now that autofocus is not the 350D’s strongest suit. In a low to moderately lit indoor room, it was hunting for focus lock using the central point only. This was with a Canon 50mm f/1.8 in a room that I have photographed in before with my 20D and the 20D definitely did lock under those situations.

Ouch...
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#14
Ah ha! Big Grin
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#15
Just thinking about it though, if using an external flash in low light - the IR AF assist on the flash unit should improve things, shouldn't it?
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#16
That should be true. I know on my 10D I can even set a custom function so that the camera uses the flash's AF beam but doesn't fire the flash itself for exposure. This works with external flashes and the ST-E2 transmitter too.
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#17
ok, well I have a bit of a dillema.

I've currently got a 350D on order with an EF 70-200 L f/4 USM lens... Total price (with a couple of other cheap bits and pieces) is around AU$2750.

Now I just "discovered" that the same place is selling a 20D "enthusiasts kit" for AU$2799. I assumed that the enthusiasts kit was like the 300D Enthusiasts Kit (ie was the standard kit plus the cheapest EF 75-300 USM lens).
But it turns out that the 20D Enthusiasts Kit they are offering only includes one lens - the EF-S 17-85 IS USM!!!! hmmmm.. yum!

So... basically for the same price as a 350D with EF-S 18-55 II and EF 70-200 L f/4 USM, I can get a 20D with a 17-85 f/4-5.6 IS USM lens.

What do I do?
That seems like a fantastic lens bundled with the 20D for not much more than the standard price of the 20D with the stock EF-S 18-55 lens, and although it doesn't give much telephoto to play with, it would be the perfect "take anywhere" lens with a bit of zoom, IS, and much better image quality than the 18-55.
But.. the 18-55 lens that comes with the 350D isn't a horrible lens by any means, and the 70-200 "L" should be fantastic.
Although there is no question the 20D is a better camera than the 350D, I'm not sure I would get my money's worth of the differences. Plus digital cameras become obsolete. I think I would get better value for money spending it on lenses.

Following on from Rufus' lead, I will award "kombi points" to the major differences and how important they are to me:

0= No value at all, 10= Great value.

* The EOS 20D has 9 autofocus zones, the Digital Rebel XT has 7 3 Kombi points (as I think the 20D diamond arrangement of points is much better than the cross arrangement used by the 350D)

* The EOS 20D provides full cross-type performance with maximum apertures as small as f5.6, yet it achieves up to 3 times the standard focusing precision when used with EF lenses featuring maximum apertures larger than or equal to f/2.8. The autofocus system of the Digital Rebel XT is inherited from the film Rebel XT body and has normal precision f5.6 sensors. 5 Kombi points

* The EOS 20D autofocus is specified to operate in 1 stop lower light than the Digital Rebel autofocus (-0.5 EV vs +0/5 EV) 6 Kombi points

* The EOS 20D has a pentaprism with a 0.9x viewfinder magnification, the Digital Rebel XT has a pentamirror with 0.8x magnification. 3 Kombi points (I need to look through both viewfinders side by side at the same scene to really tell how much difference it makes)

* The EOS 20D has a PC terminal for use with an external flash or strobe, the Digital Rebel XT does not. 0 Kombi points (I am not into flash photography)

* The EOS 20D maximum flash sync voltage is 250v (for both the hotshoe and PC terminal), the Digital Rebel XT maximum sync voltage is 6v 0 Kombi points

* The EOS 20D has a high performance shutter designed for increased reliability (100,000 cycles), the Digital Rebel XT has the normal Canon shutter (about 50,000 cycles). 1 Kombi point (better build quality is always good, but I doubt the 350D shutter will wear out while I own it)

* The shutter lag time of the EOS 20D is 65ms, the shutter lag time of the Digital Rebel XT is 100ms. 1 Kombi point

And a couple of new additions:

* The 20D is better built while the 350D has a nasty plastic case 2 Kombi points

* The 20D is bigger and fits people's hands better than the small 350D -1 Kombi point (I prefer smaller)

I think I've made up my mind to stick with the 350D, but I'm still open to ideas if they are good ones.
Any thoughts?
What would you do given the choice?

Cheers
Adrian
Adrian Broughton
My Website: www.BroughtonPhoto.com.au
My Blog: blog.BroughtonPhoto.com.au
You can also visit me on Facebook!
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Einstein.
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#18
I don't like these package deals. They never seem to include a lens I'd want to own. Wink

Get the body you need and the lens(es) you'll need. If you don't put much value on the 20D specs over those of the 350D, then your choice has already been made. For me, as stated above, I don't think 10D to 350D is much of an upgrade, but if I had a few hundred spare $$$s I'd get the 20D.

Separate the lens decision from the body decision. Which glass better suits your needs? The 70-200 f/4 is a really nice moderate telezoom. I'd expect the 17-85 IS lens to be comparable to the 28-135 IS - a decent-performing, general-purpose walk-around lens. If you can only buy one, which focal range is more important to you right now?
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#19
Aaaah, decisions decisions! Big Grin

Sounds like you're torn up about the lens - I guess which one would you value more?

With 350D you get an ok standard kit lens (from what I've read, it's not too bad) and good telephoto
With 20D you get a good standard lens


If you value the standard lens, how about getting a 350D with the 17-85 USM IS? Not sure what the price difference is, but I guess if it comes to only a couple hundred bucks difference between the 20D, then I'd get the 20D.

If you value the telephoto more, then the choice is obvious. Big Grin


Let us know what you decide...
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#20
Ahhh Kombi! Changing your mind again Big Grin hehe! The longer I waited to get my lens, the more I changed my mind also!

Quote:* The EOS 20D has 9 autofocus zones, the Digital Rebel XT has 7 3 Kombi points (as I think the 20D diamond arrangement of points is much better than the cross arrangement used by the 350D)
Actually, if the RebelXT follows the same autofocus points as the Rebel, there's 8 (the middle one is a cross); (haha, just restating something I learnt yesterday!) Usually I just use the centre autofocus point: focus, lock, recompose; I'd really like 24 focus points which cover the whole screen Big Grin I haven't tried the diamond arrangement before; hehe



Quote: * The EOS 20D autofocus is specified to operate in 1 stop lower light than the Digital Rebel autofocus (-0.5 EV vs +0/5 EV) 6 Kombi points
Does this reduce the camera hunting in low light?

Quote:* The 20D is better built while the 350D has a nasty plastic case 2 Kombi points
The plastic isn't THAT nasty, it's very tough, and light Smile
See http://www.canon.com/technology/intervie...ss_p1.html
They swing it around by the strap and bang it on metal poles, and it's not just any plastic! it's 'electroconductive resin' haha Smile

So it's either 350D + L or 20D + 17-85 :| You can always buy more lenses later,
Hard decision, I'd take the 20D + 70-200 + 17-85; Big Grin
The 17-85 is a lot lot nicer to use than the 18-55; because of the IS, feels better, USM, full time manual focusing, feels more solid. Or you could get the 350D with kit lens and 70-200 and then sell the kit lens as brand new and use some of that money to get the 17-85; Just a thought Smile


Give me today to think. and I'll think... when I'm supposed to be studying in the library Smile
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#21
Hey Adam,

Yeah.. I'm bored and my camera hasn't arrived yet... so therefore I must re-think it and change my mind a few more times!

I re-thought it a bit more, and pretty much settled back on the 350D (suprise suprise).

But I did decide I would not do anything until I had at least taken some real photos with a 350D and been able to take a good look at them (I had held one before, but the guy in the camera shop didn't want to put a battery in it! So other stuff I was basing on the 300D and various stuff from the web).

So.. today on my way home from work I found a shop that had one in stock and went in there with a CF card so I could take photos and bring them home, and I also took my Oly C750UZ in to take comparison photos.

I think I should discuss the comparison in a different thread though, coz it doesn't have anything to do with a 20D vs 350D comparison.

So... watch this space for a link to my conclusions!

Edit: Here is where I wrote up my impressions: http://www.shuttertalk.com/forums/viewto...?pid=17873

What was going to be a couple of images and couple of paragraphs turned into an essay! I suggest reading it when you need something to help you sleep at night.
Adrian Broughton
My Website: www.BroughtonPhoto.com.au
My Blog: blog.BroughtonPhoto.com.au
You can also visit me on Facebook!
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Einstein.
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#22
Haha... next assignment - side by side with the 20D and 350D!

Did the shop have a 20D in stock? If so, I'd be interested to see the results! Big Grin
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#23
Here's another review...
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Revie...eview.aspx

If you look at the 3rd picture down - wow I didn't realise it was that small! My brother just bought a G6, and the 350D just looks a shade bigger than it Big Grin
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#24
Hey ST,

I found the review I was looking for to pass to you. It is a direct comparison between the 350D and D20, with 100% crops at various ISO's (and WB) to get down and dirty with image quality differences. It even has a little bit on IR response which is cool (as I do a bit of IR stuff).

http://www.photo.net/equipment/canon/digital_rebel_xt/

Cheers
Adrian
Adrian Broughton
My Website: www.BroughtonPhoto.com.au
My Blog: blog.BroughtonPhoto.com.au
You can also visit me on Facebook!
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Einstein.
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#25
oh oh oh!!! I want to do IR too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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