[Rufus]

Ps. I do like you Guerito. Did you know that?

[noisynoodle]

Oh no....I promised myself I'd stay out of this, but here goes anyway.....

Imagine, hypothetically, that someone decides they want to improve their photography - make a real hobby of it and learn how to take good photos. This person, at the moment, can only manage very bad snapshots. S/he comes along to ST and posts a few, expecting some constructive guidance, but on posting one or two of the afforementioned snapshots is greeted with lots of "nice shot", " I like it" , " what a pretty dog/cat/child" etc.
How is this person going to improve, and indeed, won't s/he start to think that as all these apparently knowledgable folks just love their photos there's no need to improve?

Looking at great images is inspiring and what drives most of us to try and improve, but sometimes, if no-one tells us where we're going wrong and talks about HOW to improve then we're just left floundering, or worse still with a false impression of our abilities which can cause great distress when we perhaps venture to forums where people are a little more forthcoming and the illusion crashes around us...

It reminds me of the education system in the UK which has had such an emphasis on building self-esteem that even in spelling and grammar students have been left uncorrected thoughout their school years. When they eventually emerge into the real world, blissfully unaware that they're virtually illiterate, they wonder why they have difficulty getting and keeping a job.

Fortunately, due to complaints by employers about the atrocious standard of English in many young job applicants, we may be about to see things changing, but that doesn't help those who were dragged through the system in the last 20 years.

I don't agree with harsh criticism and especially not with tearing newbies to pieces as happens in some places on the net, but is offering only positive statements actually helping?

--NN

[guerito]

Well I don't really see why this is nasty. Rereading my post, I don't think it should be x-rated. Or is it because I don't agree with you?

How's the weather over there in the UK? We have rain, storm and hail. Also, I don't have any picture to work with. Otherwise I certainly would have ignored this thread altogether.

[guerito]

Ps. I do like you too, you old dog.

If I weren't married...

[Rufus]

Well I don't really see why this is nasty. Rereading my post, I don't think it should be x-rated. Or is it because I don't agree with you?

I dont expect agreement.
It would seem that you just cant grasp what I'm saying, or dont want to. I think it best if you stay on your side, and I stay on mine. That way you need n't concern yourself about agreeing with me.
The funny thing is that you are uptight. Why is that? Did I offend you? Did I target you? No, not at all. There are some GREAT photographers here, and no one will deny that. Perhaps that makes it all the more odd that we dont move on more. I mean, look at Kombi, Peto, Toad.............. No slouches are they, no? When they, (and others), critique, it's from an informed position. Is that scarey? Well, yes, maybe. But it helps.....................Doesnt it?????????
Oh yes. Spring has sprung here, thanks for asking. It's about 18c, which to me seems warm!

[Rufus]

...........If I weren't married... .............


........And if I werent, I'd be chasing an 18 year old model by now.......................!!!!!!

[guerito]

Oh come on, we're having these discussion about the comments every few months. And they never change a thing. The problem here is that we're feeling like family, we're nice and friendly. I suppose this is what this forum is meant to be. And I, for one, am quite happy with it. The thing is, if I really want to have a blunt, open critique of my pictures I know other places to go to. Shuttertalk is the place I will come back to when the predators out there ripped my pictures to pieces.

Of course I want to improve. And ST helped me a lot in this regard. Even the friendly comments.

Sorry I'm off to the kitchen now. It's my turn to cook and it'll be spaghetti bolognese. Yumm!

[matthew]

Is it just me, or is there a real sense of patting each other on the back here?

Critiquing is a skill, and one that only develops through practice. It requires a good eye, strong photographic sense, and an idea of why something works or doesn't. It needs to be developed, and takes effort.

You mention that you're in a rut; I do sympathize. But, since you're looking for a reaction, why not lead by example? Post something that you think doesn't work, and don't encourage it to devolve into sillyness (again). If someone mentions that they like the colour treatment, point out that it lacks balance. If someone likes the framing, ask what they think of all of your subjects being cropped at the knees. Take it seriously and be a teacher.

Everyone is qualified to give critiques. (And I'm guilty of thinking 'I'm not worthy', too.) The best critique is to simply explain to the photographer what you see, and let them figure out if you're reflective of the general view or expressing a uniquely personal reaction.

Are we here to comment on the comments, or on the pictures?

This is what, message #33? In about 12 hours?

[NT73]

Hi Rufus, I would have thought you would have known being a guitarist. I have been in a number of bands of different levels or standards to myself. When you are with a band of lesser talent than yourself you either tend to help improve them or move on. If they are of a much better standard than yourself then you would wish to stay and catch up, using their tips and expertise. How do they feel then about you, do they think we've got a dummy here, or do they hope for latent talent.

The photography forums must be exactly the same. There are people who have an eye for a good photograph, and there are others who may learn that art and yet others who will never learn it . Not always for the want of trying, but not knowing where to go for assistance.
That is how I see it anyway. For myself, I can learn whatever I set myself to learn, to whatever standard I set myself.
At the end of all this is the desire to have something we have produced, recognised and applauded by an other. Or else why do we show photographs on the net. If you are a pro. and making money from it you don't need it except for personal prestige.
I am learning from ST, other boards, and admiring others work, but still need advice that nightschool may not be able to give me.

[Rufus]

Ok.

I give up.

[Russt]

Russt wrote:
I did type a long reply to this.........but I have decided not to post it as I don't want to offend anyone!
You all know what I mean without me saying what I mean don't you??....

Personally, I havent a clue what you are saying.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

just my poor attempt at humour :|


IMHO some of the problems I see with this type of forum are that we are not talking face to face so we miss alot of the conversation that would normally come through body language. Its too easy to take things the wrong way. Thats why they have the little smile faces.......but they don't always work!

I understand what you are getting at Rufus but I think its hard to find the middle ground in this type of forum.

"nothing inspiring here" "Do you see more than 4 people really making an effort?"
I don't think you can make the above statements without offending someone!
"do we shrink from posting genuine comments," funny how in this thread when they were offered offence was taken....... or is that just me taking things out of context??? too right it could be!

come on Rufus lead by example...........I can not say I have seen it from you........maybe you don't want to offend.

Packing up the bat and ball is not the answer!!

We will not always agree which is good and as humans we need some spice in our life.........eg this thread look at how many views and comments.

I hope you can seen my point and I did not contradict myself too much.

[Keith Alan]

From my 'new member' perspective, here's a few thoughts.

My standards of what makes a great photo are my own, at this point in time of my photography education.
So they aren't any more correct than anyone else's.
Being new here, I haven't seen enough to form an opinion as to other member's skill levels, goals or the thickness of their skins. Yet.
So unless a photo is in the 'critique' forum, I don't feel comfortable offering criticism.
And even then, someone with more experience or skill has usually posted what I was going to say already.

I don't feel that the 'snapshot' forum is appropriate for anything but praising or commenting on those photos I like.
The 'showcase' forum should be open for critiques, by virtue of people feeling that their shot is worthy of being showcased, but again I rarely get to offer anything that wasn't mentioned before. (My timezone is a problem here, as I'm asleep while things are busy here at ST.)

So I fall back on the policy of not commenting on any photos but the ones that blow me away, while remaining silent about the rest.
I should offer more comments, but as mentioned before I'm not yet comfortable in my new surroundings.

Matthew said:
" The best critique is to simply explain to the photographer what you see, and let them figure out if you're reflective of the general view or expressing a uniquely personal reaction."

This has become my critiqueing guide.
And it works, because Matthew's critiques of my work (on another forum) have made a huge positive difference in my growth as a photographer.
And when he is silent on some of my photos that tells me something, too.

I think we can all agree that everyone has different tastes, and there is no universally 'great' photo that we all love.
Even photos I hate can teach me something, but that doesn't mean that the photographer needs to hear that I hated their picture.
Constructive criticism is difficult to write sometimes while still being respectful of a person's feelings and taking into account their abilities and goals.
We must all keep trying, though.

[Petographer]

I'm posting a couple links that I hope help will alleviate some of the issues at hand.

First is a page written by Jim Erhardt called "The art of critique". http://www.naturephotographers.net/je1001-1.html

Second is to a seminar. http://www.photo-seminars.com/Critiquing...quing.html

[shuttertalk]

Hi all,

I think we've teased out and distilled the issues here, so let's look at it objectively. Here's what I think they are:

1. The point was raised regarding lack of quality of critique, or lack of critique at all. This a fair comment, especially for those who genuinely want to learn and improve.

2. Not everyone wants, welcomes or is ready to receive criticism. I think this also true. We have the snapshots, showcase and critique forums, users can feel free to choose what level they are comfortable with, and we should respect their decisions.

3. Not everyone here is an expert critic. Most people critique based on own experience, some just tell us what they think. Peto posted some excellent links to guides on providing critique, but just be aware that like photography, it is a skill that needs to be developed, and not everyone is there yet.

4. Art is interpreted in different ways by different people. a.k.a. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 'nuff said.

Let us all exercise some understanding and respect when dealing with each other.



For the poster seeking critique - there are things which you can do to make it easier for people to critique your photos.

1. Provide sufficient context surrounding your photos - descriptive text, the aim behind the photo, challenges, problems or concerns you were having, what you're proud of, etc. Others will be more inclined if you actually put some effort into this. It irks me when people drop a bunch of photos without any text whatsoever, and expect others to read their mind.

2. Specifically request it - some people just want to post photos for fun, while others are desperately seeking to learn through constructive criticism. If you're the latter, then make it clear when you post the photo, lest it be misinterpreted.

3. Less is more - it is infinitely harder to provide individual critique if there are a string of 8 photos staring the user in the face. Split them up, unless you don't mind general comments or comments about the series as a whole.

4. Start with yourself. If you're wondering why no one is commenting on your photos, take a step back and ask when you did it for someone else. If you're a guru-critic, teach others how to do so via your example. The more you do it, the more others will catch on.


Above all, I recognise that Shuttertalk has its strengths and shortcomings, but I really do hope that we all exercise some respect and understanding for one another. At the end of the day, photos come and go, but I think the friendships and community we've built matter the most.

Jules

[Toad]

Nice post Jules. Sums it up well.

[Kombisaurus]

ooo... I completely missed this thread until now! I feel like the person who just walked into the movie theatre as the end credits start to roll

Rufus, I do think you raise a valid point with this post, but I'm not sure I completely agree with your proposed solution - at least not for everybody.

there have been some gems here. I wouldnt dream of denying that, but overall I dont think we're pushed enough

I think this sentence above really hits the nail on the head though. The problem as I see it isn't whether or not people are being nice or nasty or patting on the back or tearing an image to pieces.... The problem is that some people feel that they aren't being challenged to improve as much as they could.
Like you, I think my skin is thick enough to cope with more critical comments on my images... and I think that even if they occassionally ruffle my feathers, I am all the better for it. I want my preconceptions challenged. I want people to tell me when I over-use certain devices or techniques. I want to know when I post cliche shots. I'm not as interested as I used to be in the technical quality of my shots, but far more interested in the content and how I've selected and presented it to the viewer. I am quite certain I've never taken a perfect photograph in my life, and probably never will. But I need to know how I can get closer to that goal. And I also need to learn to deal with criticism - its an important life-skill. Of course there are sensitive ways to be honest and there are cruel ways to be honest. One piece of advice I was given for dealing with misbehaving children was to balance every negative comment with at least one positive one - no matter how big or small. Then people know that the comments are respectful and not a personal attack. eg: "I don't like the dog poo as a subject Rufus, but it is nicely in focus and the frame you used is nice".

BUT... For some people, the most important thing they need to improve their photography might be the support and encouragement to just get out there and keep shooting. For people in that situation, being brutally honest might simply discourage them away from photography. They might think their dog poo photo is the most beautiful photo they've ever shot, and saying otherwise might crush their dreams, even if it is true.
They still need to be pushed and challenged, but in a more supportive and very positive way. It wasn't long ago that I might've considered myself in this group - and I know a few people in real life who show great talent in various areas yet are held back by their lack of confidence.

My point is that I really support you raising this issue as a reminder to try to get us all to really challenge each other to improve.. but I think the best way to do this varies from person to person.

There are a number of really valuable points that Jules raises above. I also totally agree with Matthew's comments on learning to critique. From my own personal experience, I have found that learning to see the everyday world as a series of photographs (and actually taking mental photos all day), and learning to self-critique have perhaps been the two most important elements to improving my photography so far... and you don't even need a camera to do either of them; just a pair of eyes.

I disagree with G when he implies that its a bad thing for posts like these to appear every few months. I've noticed that immediately after a topic like this has been raised, the level of attention to critiques and the quality of comments improves dramatically. Slowly over the months people tend to slacken off again (myself included)... but having a post like this appear every once in a while is a great reminder to us NOT to be lazy but to be helpful instead. I see great value in these discussions, even if they are repeated. They provide checks to keep us on track.

Finally, as far as your wobbly tractor pic goes Rufus... The reason I didn't comment had nothing to do with the photo. I didn't have a clue about the Latin you included and assumed there was probably a joke in there to go with the photo that I didn't understand... so I kind of skimmed over it.
And for the record... I'm in a bit of a rut at the moment too! Not a big one though.
Hopefully I'll have some new and quite different photos to post soon, but I need to go buy some film before I can do any shooting, and I'm not talking about 35mm film either. :/

[Toad]

{Beep}

[wulinka]

It would be unfortunate if every time we have this discussion in here someone felt like they have to leave.. :/

And I see your point Rufus, and have expressed my opinion on your other thread.

However, I don't think it's entirely fair to make it feel like there are just about 3 good photographers in here whose critique is to be taken serious and the rest of us are just kind of toddling along.

look at Kombi, Peto, Toad.............. No slouches are they, no? When they, (and others), critique, it's from an informed position!

Not to use any names, I think there are a bunch of us in here who have made great effords, and after all "es ist noch kein meister vom Himmel gefallen" (~ no one is born a master photographer....).

so as much as I agree that there should be honest critique, and it should be alowed if not sought, you have to give some credit to all of us "not quite yet there".

Another aspect of this discussion is that of tast, but I think we are pretty much done with this and I won't open a whole new chapter...


so what are you doing with all your time now?? :-) are you coming back soon with lots of helpful comments?

Best, Ulrike

[Rufus]

Gah........ You dragged me back!!!! Nonononono! I wasnt saying there were only three. I was saying that 3 people sprang to mind. An entirely different thing.

What am I doing? Well, I SOLD EVERYTHING!!!!

Now I shall aquire some new tools and start over. Meanwhile, I'm studying theory....................


Must go. See you all in a few months.

Regards,

R.